Aftermath Reborn Rules Discussion

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Re: Aftermath Reborn Rules Discussion

Post by Sir Nickolas on Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:09 am

When we get around to fielding Order Knights, what are the limitations (lore-wise)?

I had an idea to use the CKHO idea from PoP 3.6, and have Simon's Order Knights reflect a custom (minor) Knighthood Order.

Stat wise they remain exactly the same as normal Order Knights, it's just the lore context and stuff.

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Re: Aftermath Reborn Rules Discussion

Post by Mordred on Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:37 am

Thats fine, it's mostly the stats that I am concerned about (and do not wish to change).

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Re: Aftermath Reborn Rules Discussion

Post by Sir Nickolas on Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:57 am

More questions! (of NPC nature)

1: Can NPC Lords become Player Vassals?
2: Is it possible to take NPC Lands?
3: Is it possible to remove an NPC from play?
4: Not an NPC question, but Ancient Claim does not discount defensive structures such as the Stockade or Hill Fort, right? (Only Manpower related ones, like Manors and Estates)

...I should honestly stop plotting, but I can't help it. Simon must reclaim his home, but Hernando is too much of a distraction!

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Re: Aftermath Reborn Rules Discussion

Post by Tysha on Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:58 am

Solution:

Stop looking at his magnificent codpiece!

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Re: Aftermath Reborn Rules Discussion

Post by Mordred on Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:01 am

1. Though the mechanics for this have not yet been designed. In theory its possible, but I've not worked out how.
2. Anything in blue is "locked", you can make that Count a vassal (and make them pay a % of their income as taxes to you, and call them up for wars). Anything in red can be conquered, but like 1 I have no systems in place for that yet.
3. Kinda... depends on circumstances.
4. Correct.

As to the magnificent codpiece - You know it's rude to stare (but it's unavoidable Wink)

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Re: Aftermath Reborn Rules Discussion

Post by Mordred on Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:39 am

In case you were wondering, I split the Mystmountain strengths into five rough groupings, which produce a rough set of numbers for me. Each Mystmountain Hex has one of these allocated which calculates the number of defenders when raided. Likewise these correlate to Mystmountain raids, depending on how strong they are when they attack. (Always done in Units of 100 unless specified)

Groups ; 1-3 Raiders, 0-1 Warriors
Bands ; 1-4 Raiders, 1-2 Warriors
Clans ; 2-5 Raiders, 2-4 Warriors, 0-1 Shaman
Throng ; 3-7 Raiders, 3-6 Warriors, 1-2 Shaman, 0-1 Honour Guard, 0-50 Bearclaw Berserkers (individuals)
Horde ; 5-10 Raiders, 5-8 Warriors, 2-3 Shaman, 1 Honour Guard, 50-100 Bearclaw Bersekers (individuals)

So if my hints say "A group of clans has moved into the area" then you have a rough estimate of what is really there. Obviously these are open to modification should I deem it necessary... Twisted Evil 

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Re: Aftermath Reborn Rules Discussion

Post by Mordred on Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:09 pm

So as you have seen with Everard, I have begun to work out how Vassals and Titles will work (finally the Royal Appointment background comes into its own!), as a number of other players have now expressed interest.

I will be removing the Prestige penalty associated with being a Vassal, and Vassals will now earn quirks depending on the relationship with their liege.

1. - 10% tax, 1 Captain when called : Can raise 2 units of Men at Arms from an Estate.
2. - 20% tax : +1 Wealth
3. - 0% tax, no limit of Captains when called : Something.

Etc.

(Names to come)

**

This is just a very rough draft, but do you think this method has merit? In this way there is an incentive for Vassals to remain loyal, while the Lieges get taxes and military service (plus the Prestige).

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Re: Aftermath Reborn Rules Discussion

Post by Tysha on Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:17 pm

I would prefer very limited bonuses for vassals, or even no mechanical benefits at all. I hope to see a constantly shifting balance of power where, in the words of Littlefinger, we all try to climb the ladder. If vassals are gaining such awesome perks like getting cheap men-at-arms or extra wealth, what's the point of trying to become a duke? Unless lieges are gaining more than the current prestige bonuses, which are nice but arguably or even objectively less useful than some of those bonuses.

I like the removal of the penalty, that way we have a larger potential for loyal (or at least not consistently rebellious) vassals. If it were to be a simple vote, I'd prefer to see the liege suffer a large prestige hit if they don't come to their vassals' aid in a defensive war... excluding raids.

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Re: Aftermath Reborn Rules Discussion

Post by Valdir on Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:30 pm

removing the penalty means there's no reason why I shouldn't become Tysha's vassal, for example. I liked the penalty because the vassal lord as no real say anymore. A puppet of its master, the Duke of Marleons trying to have some say in the Steppe and Everard is likely to find obstructions everywhere he goes.

Marleons as neutral ground is gone the second they have a political gain in it. Because of this I propose to have the council meeting in either Laria, or Logna.

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Re: Aftermath Reborn Rules Discussion

Post by Mordred on Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:34 pm

Valdir wrote:Marleons as neutral ground is gone the second they have a political gain in it. Because of this I propose to have the council meeting in either Laria, or Logna.
That is something I had not considered. From the beginning I wanted to try to keep things to just the Steppe, should we continue to do this? (In which case I will deny Everard's request for vassalage).

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Re: Aftermath Reborn Rules Discussion

Post by Valdir on Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:44 pm

Being a vassal to a non-PC that's not included in the game in any way and yet gives all the perks and significant RP-bonus during councils.. my opinion on this is clear I think.

Though I'd hate to let rp get wasted if Everard already wrote some stuff. Perhaps we can find a fair solution?

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Re: Aftermath Reborn Rules Discussion

Post by Shadow-Seeker on Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:14 pm

How about this-

-No men-at-arms perk for Everard, Aelfwine doesn't' want to be overtly putting himself in the affairs of the Steppe, and could use the arms and trainers somewhere else. Removing the mechanic-benefit of being a vassal from Everard.

-RP benefit of being vassal of Marleons is not within the council chamber. Aelfwine declares council chamber as neutral ground.

-As this is a changing balance of power, players should receive prestige penalties when put under vassalage by another player. I see the prestige penalty as a sort of humiliation, as a dishonor for being taken as a prize by someone who is more than likely your equal in status. Everard would be exempt from this, being under the vassalage of his rightful liege-lord, Lord of Marleons.


One thing we must be on the lookout for, is not letting mechanics outweigh RP. Mechanics are meant to simulate and aid it, not restrain it. Between RP and mechanics, I prefer RP. If something is feasible, it should be allowed, we can't restrict ourselves to a very rigid ruleset.

I've already written up stuff and everything, even got a little draft of the homage ceremony, so i'm loathe to let it go to waste. Is that satisfactory?

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Re: Aftermath Reborn Rules Discussion

Post by Valdir on Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:16 pm

Shadow-Seeker wrote: I see the prestige penalty as a sort of humiliation, as a dishonor for being taken as a prize by someone who is more than likely your equal in status. Everard would be exempt from this, being under the vassalage of his rightful liege-lord, Lord of Marleons.

One thing we must be on the lookout for, is not letting mechanics outweigh RP. Mechanics are meant to simulate and aid it, not restrain it. Between RP and mechanics, I prefer RP. If something is feasible, it should be allowed, we can't restrict ourselves to a very rigid ruleset.
This isn't about the mechanics per sé. In the RP being a vassal of Aelfwine destroys the balance of the Steppe and no one will trust or involve you since that's equal to involving Aelfwine. In that context it isn't feasible RP. I can imagine you aiding against bandits since your county borders Marleons, but instead of vassalage he could give you something else.

And if you were to lose to someone of equal status and become his vassal there should be a higher penalty than the mere 1 prestige, I agree on that one (because at that point they could also behead you and take your lands for their brother/cousin). But a vassal is a minor lord who speaks with less authority, thus there should always be a penalty.

Remember that you are a member of the council and there lies your loyalty. If you become a vassal of a lord that's not in that council, your loyalty shifts to something outside the steppe itself. The council has more claim to your lands than the Duke of Marleons and this could (and will) result in skirmishes, caravan raids and blockades. The final measure would, ofcourse, be a war against Marleons. It has nothing to do with the mechanics.

Spoiler:
Basically you'd forfeit the game, no one will vote Aelfwine's puppet Governor of the Steppe.

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Re: Aftermath Reborn Rules Discussion

Post by Tysha on Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:12 am

The reason for removing the prestige penalty is because there would never be a purpose in vassalizing someone.  Even though -1 prestige is incredibly small, (the main issue with it is it destroys the nice even numbers we get, two raids would put as at 28 and thus no quirk yet) it is still too much for us to tolerate.  If we forcibly vassalize someone, there is absolutely no incentive to stay loyal, nor could we accept a diplomatic or willing agreement.  Thus if you ever did acquire a vassal, whatever you might gain from it won't outweigh the costs of having to maintain relations with a certainly rebellious vassal.

If being a vassal isn't a problem, there is only the positive incentive to become the liege.  Then we'll have the kind of power struggle we (or at least I) want to have.  After a successful war one liege could take the vassal of another, and the vassal isn't -necessarily- being harmed.  The vassal may even have assisted secretly in the transfer of power.

I'd rather see the penalties come from breaking that feudal contract in less than honorable ways.  Open battle or prestige maneuvers are fine, sneak attacks or refusing to answer the call would cost prestige.  That may still be workable even with the costs-benefits that Mordred proposed though.

Edit: Hopefully that doesn't count as a wall of text! Anyway, I think Mordred's change is the way to go. I just prefer not to see vassals gaining boosts directly like extra gold or anything. If a liege wishes to give something of their own, I'm fine with that of course.

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Re: Aftermath Reborn Rules Discussion

Post by Tysha on Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:10 pm

What is the final decision on vassalage? Will vassals be gaining something new as part of their pledges, or are we just dropping the prestige penalty?

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Re: Aftermath Reborn Rules Discussion

Post by Mordred on Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:04 pm

They will, and I've made the claiming Vassals a little more structured now (so unwilling vassals have some warning, and time to make alliances) while willing ones can be determined properly too.

Stiiiiiiiiiiiill working on just how that will work. Had a big deadline tomorrow (Speez Vikings!) but will try and get something together next week.

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Re: Aftermath Reborn Rules Discussion

Post by Mordred on Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:17 am

Input please! Please note especially the Marcher rules, these are put into place so as not to give unfair advantage to those who conquer empty hexes rather than conquer counties held by other players.

Lieges and Vassals

Only NPC Nobles and Players are eligible for being a vassal or liege. NPC figures from outside the Steppe may not vassalise nor become a liege. Mystmountains may not vassalise or become a liege, but see below for their conquest rules.

Ways to Gain a Vassal

Conquest
Announce intention to besiege a potential vassal. Sieges take two turns, the first is spent setting up and preparing in the hex, then on the second the battle occurs. Siege battles are repeated on that turn until one side wins by a margin of 75%.

Diplomatic
Request diplomatic annexation from the Steppe Council. Requires 51% majority.

Types of Liege

Feudal society was strictly hierarchical, and while it was possible to break this hierachy, doing so was usually exceptionally expensive. In order to achieve the most efficient government as possible, it will be required to purchase higher Titles of Nobility (see Prestige rules).

Count (Marcher)
A Count may always conquer a Marcher lord. Doing so will earn them 1 Prestige a turn, and suffers no other penalty. Note, there are special rules for ruling over Marcher lords, see below.

Count (Subjugation)
Without a proper claim to hold another Count vassal, the liege is considered to be occupying the vassals's lands. Subjugation requires a captain action each turn to maintain their grip over the vassal. For each Command Level fully used (ie 2 troops per level, Marshall quirk ignored), the Liege will earn 1 prestige to a cap of 3.

Earl
The next tier in the social hierarchy, an Earl may vassalise a Count without penalty. Earls may subjugate each other, but require a Command 2 Captain Subjugation action as a minimum to maintain their conquest. An Earl will earn 3 Prestige each turn, or 5 Prestige if they have one or more vassals.

Duke
The ultimate tier in aristocratic tradition, a Duke may not be vassalised by Earls or Counts, and may vassalise another Duke with a Command 4 Subjugation Captain action. Dukes earn 5 Prestige each turn by default, or 10 Prestige if they have at least one Count or Earl as a vassal. If they possess at least one Earl as vassal, who themselves have vassals then this reward goes to 15 Prestige a turn.

If at any time the requirements for subjugation are broken, then that vassal is immediately freed from service.

Types of Vassal

There are a number of different Vassal oaths which can be sworn. They are selected when first swearing fealty, and may only be changed for the sum of 50 Prestige. These oaths determine the relationship between the liege and servant.

Feudal Vassal
The "standard", with the usual balance of military and economic requirements. Feudal vassals owe their liege half of their military forces (rounding up) in the case of a call to arms, and at least one captain. Tax rate may be set to 10% (rounding up) of the Vassal's wealth income.
The Vassal gain an additional 1 Prestige a turn, and 1 Tax.

Military Vassal
Military vassals have greater military responsibility to their liege, and will need to make their entire force available for service when called to arms, and two Captains (if possible).
The County Vassal gains 1 Manpower for the duration of their service.

Economic Vassal
Economic vassals tend to be of a more mercantile nature, and the Liege may set their tax rate up to 20% (rounding up), but can demand no military service.
An Economic vassal earns 3 additional Tax.

If the vassal is an Earl then they receive 1 Prestige a turn, if the vassal is a Duke then they receive 2 Prestige a turn. These stack with other boni.

Liege Powers

Vote
The Liege may call on their subject's vote in any matter at the Council (and for all Votes at that session), but may not demand any taxes or military service for the coming season if they do so.

Call to Arms
A liege may call Feudal and Military vassals to service, at which point the vassal captains and forces are under the control of the liege. Vassal captains will earn victories and 25% of any gold / prestige that they are eligible for, with the rest going to the liege. A Call to Arms can occur for any reason, including garrison duty, sieges, and raiding.

Vassal Rebellion

Vassals may rebel from their liege and earn their independence with the following means.

Military
If the Vassal is able successfully besiege their liege's captain, then they will win freedom. Attempting this will cost 30 Prestige, and they will of course ignore any Calls to Arms!

Diplomatic
A Vassal may make a plea to the Steppe Governor to call a vote on the revocation of their vassalage. Holding this vote will cost 30 Prestige (and can only be done with the vassal's assent).

Mystmountain Conquest

Mystmountain strongholds (hexes) can be besieged in the same way as a Player can, however all neighbouring Mystmountain hexes will answer a Call to Arms to defend that position. In cases where a coalition is involved, the liege-to be must be announced before the battle begins. Further more, this liege must pay 60 Prestige for this offensive to be sanctioned by the King, and if they lose then this fee too is lost.

On conquest of a Mystmountain stronghold, a Captain must be given the new title, but are otherwise controlled by the liege. Hexes so conquered are known as Marches (and owned by a Marquis or Marquioness), and can be besieged and stolen as per normal vassalising rules. If a Count has no spare captains, then they may not conquer a hex.

If a Mystmountain Stronghold falls, all neighbouring Mystmountains will increase in size by a factor of 1 grouping, and the chance for retribution raids is significantly increased!

Special Marquis Rules

Lieges of a March may take up to 10 gold in taxes for general use (with all other income from that hex being spent only on that hex), and may not move forces out of that position which they do not have Captains for (so surplus troops must remain Garrisoned in that hex).

Moving Capital

A March may be occupied by a ruling Count, Earl or Duke and named as the new capital for that liege. Doing so will downgrade their old holding to a March, with all the rules that entails. Any trait boni that can be moved, such as the Priestly manpower boost, or the Merchant Connections wealth will be transferred.

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Re: Aftermath Reborn Rules Discussion

Post by Tysha on Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:47 am

Prestige amounts need to be rebalanced I think. I don't see a situation where a Duke would ever regain the 120 prestige they pay for the title. Holding vassals is not prestige-effective either, especially when it costs a Captain. Nor should the Council be able to remove a vassal-liege relationship... it removes an ability to have a villain in the RP.

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Re: Aftermath Reborn Rules Discussion

Post by Tysha on Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:41 am

Okay... here is a specific alternative:

Vassals-
Viscounts (Captains in conquered territories): Grant 2 prestige to liege per turn.
Counts (NPC or PC): Grant 4 prestige to liege per turn
Margrave/Marquis: Grant 7 prestige to liege per turn.
Dukes: Cannot be vassalized, the title must be usurped.

Titles-
Count: 0 prestige.
Margarve/Marquis: Requires two viscounts, or one Count vassal. Grant 4 additional prestige per turn. Cost: Must have 40 prestige (but that prestige is not lost in buying the title, thus a benchmark instead of a cost)
Duke: Requires two counts, or one count and two viscounts within the Duchy. Grant 8 additional prestige per turn. Cost: Must have 80 prestige (not lost in buying the title)

This combines two potential solutions to the prestige question. The first solution is to reduce the cost of titles (dramatically) so that they have the chance to 'pay' for themselves eventually. The second is to set a benchmark of how much prestige one must have to acquire the title, rather than buying the title. This uses both, and thus may result in too much prestige inflation... although I consider that unlikely, as there must be a very strong incentive to become a liege rather than a vassal, given the impressive boosts vassals gain.

I changed the title from Earl, because I hate that title. >.>

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Re: Aftermath Reborn Rules Discussion

Post by Mordred on Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:52 am

Nice suggestions Tysha, it got me thinking more about it. I am wondering if we're approaching this from the wrong angle, and should perhaps be applying a model closer to the raiding mechanics which add to total value rather than taking a cut of it.

Basically what I am thinking is if you take human (or NPC) Counties, then you get a fixed amount of wealth / manpower, plus a decent amount of prestige and they do not lose anything. If you take a Mystmountain hex, you get more raw resources but less prestige.

So basically;
Vassals
Liege gets; Vassal Wealth x3 + 1/4 of Manpower, and 4 Prestige /turn. May Call to Arms and Use Vassal Vote.
Vassal gets; One of the Feudal / Economic / Military boni, and 1 Prestige /turn.
Average additonal income for the liege would therefore be 9 gold/turn, 3 Manpower and 4 Prestige /turn. Plus the other Vassal powers you get, which is basically an automatic combat ally and extra Captain actions.

Frontiers
Liege gets; Vassal Wealth x5 + all of Manpower, and 1 Prestige /turn.
Vassal gets nothing, its not really a player. All it's assets are "moved" to the home county.
Average additional income for the Liege would therefore be about 15 gold/turn and about 7 more manpower and 1 prestige.

This way Frontiers become strategic assets to fight over for materials, and Vassals are an alternative to getting Prestige over raiding.

I'll rework Titles too, based on this.

It would also be possible to add Noble quirks which alter those stats (so gain x7 gold from frontiers), or wealth boosts. These could also be tied to Titles, so to get the really good ones you'd need to be a Duke.

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Re: Aftermath Reborn Rules Discussion

Post by Tysha on Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:10 am

I like it! (I'll try to clarify the formulas somehow, I understand it now but I was utterly terrified at first.) The frontier becomes more of a colony, and thus in line with us not directly holding them.

I also suggest an update of quirks/command in general. I feel like there's a bit of an arms race for command, leading to us not being able to take advantage of some of the others. For example, there's no point in taking Aggressive Commander (or whichever one gives +1 when attacking) if you have the victory credits to simply take Experienced Commander. There should be fewer base +1 command options, and more situational ones. It would also make Marshal a worthwhile choice... most PCs can control all of their troops with 3 command, so why choose Marshal over the additional 5% combat value? Other cool quirks, like Rabble Rouser and Paranoid, could be added primarily for flavor and such.

I would cap that at Experienced commander, allow for Natural Commander (the Noble Quirk one), and then increase the victories (like requiring 10 victories for the next level) or prestige cost of the base command trait to make them less common. Refunds should be given for those already purchased.

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Re: Aftermath Reborn Rules Discussion

Post by Tysha on Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:21 am


Vassals
Liege gets; Vassal Wealth x3 + 1/4 of Manpower, and 4 Prestige /turn. May Call to Arms and Use Vassal Vote.
Vassal gets; One of the Feudal / Economic / Military boni, and 1 Prestige /turn.
Average additonal income for the liege would therefore be 9 gold/turn, 3 Manpower and 4 Prestige /turn. Plus the other Vassal powers you get, which is basically an automatic combat ally and extra Captain actions.


Example: Rolando vassalizes me, with my 1-7 hex (functionally a 2-8 hex due to Adventurers and Merchant Connections).
He then gets in gold three times my base wealth, so 6 gold a turn. (For reference, we get 10 times our base wealth in gold.) He's also able to control 1/4 of my manpower, so he gets 2 units of troops for everyday actions. And 4 prestige a turn.


---------------

I think the military vassalage bonus has to be changed in some way. No one will take an extra manpower, pay the expense to build it up, and then lose it when advancing in status by overthrowing their liege or having their liege lose the vassalage, etc. Perhaps a simple 100 Footmen, upgraded to 100 men-at-arms in a few turns would be more functional?




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Re: Aftermath Reborn Rules Discussion

Post by Mordred on Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:26 am

Somewhat agreed though I do think that Command is working precisely as intended at the moment, though the Victories required could use some tweaking.

I do however think that the situational bonuses should be changed. For instance +2 for Infantry Commander... somewhat like Siege Engineer. I have noticed with Azar that I will actually pick targets who have stockades and defences built so that I can really maximise her bonus.

As to an arms race, I dispute that, many players are going for more utility quirks rather than the pure command increases. Marauder, Rabble Rouser, Siege Engineer, Natural Commander, Independently Wealth, Bureaucrat, Fierce Friends, Sly have all been taken.

Marshall comes into its own once you have 3 or higher Command, plus its given as a free Quirk now with the Marshall Councillor position which was kinda of its intention in the first place Wink

***

Yes I will need to look at those vassal bonuses again with this system, but I like the idea of letting the player choose. It maintains a level of characterisation which I am particularly taken with.

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Re: Aftermath Reborn Rules Discussion

Post by Mordred on Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:40 am

Raider : +2 Command when raiding.
Defender : +2 Command when defending (stacks with Garrison Commander and Army Type Commander)
Attacker : +2 Command when attacking (stacks with Raider, Besieger and Army Type Commander)
Besieger : +2  Command when attacking a fortification
Cavalry Commander : +2 Command when army is 50% or more cavalry.
Infantry Commander : +2 Command when army is 50% or more melee infantry.
Defensive Commander : +2 Command when army is 50% or more first strike infantry.
Archery Commander : +2 Command when army is 50% or more ranged.
Garrison Commander : +2 Command when army is defending a fortification.


Combat Quirks
(Has victory requirements, but are granted free once the threshold is reached. This rewards combat use for captains and allows them to still remain useful in other situations).

Inexperienced Commander : 1 Command : All Nobles and Captains begin with this.
Experienced Commander : +1 Command : Requires 3 Victories.
Confident Commander : +1 Command : Requires 9 Victories.
Veteran Commander : +1 Command : Requires 18 Victories.
Exceptional Commander : +1 Command : Requires 30 Victories.
Masterful Commander : +1 Command : Requires 45 Victories.

***

This would mean the highest Command a character could feasibly have is... 16 or a 80% combat bonus.
Masterful 6 + Archery 2 + Defender 2 + Garrison Cmdr 2 + Siege Engineer 2 + Born to Command 1 + Natural Commander 1 = 16)

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Re: Aftermath Reborn Rules Discussion

Post by Tysha on Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:46 am

I like that. As difficult as it may be now, I suggest raids against the Mystmountains not counting as a victory. Conquests and battles would, but not raids. It's a way to help us be more aggressive against PCs, even if we don't draw the distinction with NPC hexes.

Choosing vassalage works too, I just don't think a straight 1 MP is going to work as desired. Unless it's something like a free estate or free keep. Even then, people will be more reluctant to climb the ladder if it means losing gold they've invested in that 'free' troop.

Although my opinion is still that the only bonus for being a vassal is not suffering prestige decay and relying on the liege for protection. Wink 

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Re: Aftermath Reborn Rules Discussion

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