Aftermath Reborn Rules Discussion

A quick proposal:  Boost Fierce Friends to 20 Order Knights (combat value is 160 base, for a comparison a unit of 100 bowmen/spearmen is 200) and Paranoid to 35 (base value of 175).  That makes them almost equal in combat effectiveness, so that it becomes a matter of which flavor is preferred rather than, well... 5 Order Knights adds less than half the value of a unit of peasants.

Edit:
Proposal is

Fierce Friends goes from 5 Order Knights to 20.

Paranoid goes from 25 Adventurers to 35.

Lieges and Vassals

Only NPC Nobles and Players are eligible for being a vassal or liege. NPC figures from outside the Steppe may not vassalise nor become a liege. Mystmountains may not vassalise or become a liege, but see below for their conquest rules.

Vassals are Players or NPC's who have been conquered. Frontiers are Mystmountain hexes which have been conquered.

Ways to Gain a Vassal

Conquest
Announce intention to besiege a potential vassal. Sieges take two turns, the first is spent setting up and preparing in the hex, then on the second the battle occurs. Siege battles are repeated on that turn until one side wins by a margin of 75%.

Diplomatic
Request diplomatic annexation from the Steppe Council. Requires 51% majority.

Types of Liege

Feudal society was strictly hierarchical, and while it was possible to break this hierarchy, doing so was usually exceptionally expensive. In order to achieve the most efficient government as possible, it will be required to purchase higher Titles of Nobility (see Prestige rules).

Conqueror (Subjugation)
A player may attack and conquer any hex, with different rules for Frontiers and Vassals.
Frontiers; if the player has no available Viscounts then they will require a Captain action to hold it. A Captain that is subjugating must maintain a garrison of 2 units at all times, unless they have the Viceroy quirk.
Vassals; if the player is not of Marquis or higher rank, then they will require a Captain action to hold it. A Captain that is subjugating must maintain a garrison of 4 units at all times (therefore needing to be Command 2 at least!), unless they have the Viceroy quirk.

Viscount (Captain)
In order for a Player to attack and conquer a frontier hex without penalty, they require a Captain with the Viscount quirk. Each Viscount may rule only one hex, so if a player wishes to conquer a second, then they will require a second Viscount. A Viscount does not need to remain in their hex, and are able to undertake other actions as normal.
Viscount : Captain may conquer and rule a Frontier (Frontiers require available Viscounts to take!)

Count
A Count does not by default get any bonus prestige, but if they have at least one Viscount vassal, then they will earn prestige every turn. A Count may subjugate other Counts, but not Marquis or Dukes.
Count : (Granted Free) - 0 Prestige/turn default. +1 Prestige for each Vassal Point. 2 Vassal Points maximum. May vassalise Viscounts without penalty.

Marquis
The next tier in the social hierarchy, a Marquis may vassalise a Count without penalty. Marquis may subjugate each other, but require a Command 3 Captain Subjugation action with 6 units as a minimum to maintain their conquest. They will get prestige each turn for holding the title, but will earn more if they hold Counts and Viscounts.
Marquis : 1 Prestige/turn. +1 Prestige for each Vassal Point. 4 Vassal Points maximum. Vassals of their own vassals count in these figures! May vassalise Counts without subjugation. Requires Count.

Duke
The ultimate tier in aristocratic tradition, a Duke may not be vassalised by Marquis or Counts, and may vassalise another Duke with a Command 4 Subjugation Captain action, with 8 units minimum. They will get prestige each turn for holding the title, but will earn more if they hold Marquis, Counts or Viscounts.
Duke : 2 Prestige/turn. 6 Vassal Points maximum. Vassals of their own vassals count in these figures! May vassalise Counts and Marquis without subjugation. Requires Marquis and either Bureaucrat, Courtier or Marshall.

Vassal Points
Vassal points are used to calculate the amount of Prestige awarded to a liege for the number of vassals they control. Higher tier nobles are worth more points, and thus more prestige. Each rank has a limit for the number of points they can be awarded however.

Viscount - 1 Point
Count - 2 Points
Marquis - 3 Points
Duke - 4 Points.

If at any time the requirements for subjugation are broken, then that vassal is immediately freed from service.

Types of Vassal

Frontiers
A frontier is a conquered Mystmountain hex either subjugated or ruled by a Viscount. They provide;

Liege gets; Vassal Wealth x5 + all of Manpower, and 1 Prestige /turn.
Vassal gets nothing, its not really a player. All it's assets are "moved" to the home county.
Average additional income for the Liege would therefore be about 15 gold/turn and about 7 more manpower and 1 prestige.

Vassals
A vassal is a Player or NPC that is subjugated or ruled by a player Count / Marquis or Duke. They provide;

Liege gets; Vassal Wealth x3 + 1/4 of Manpower, and 4 Prestige /turn. May Call to Arms and Use Vassal Vote.
Vassal gets; One of the Feudal / Economic / Military boni, and 1 Prestige /turn.
Average additional income for the liege would therefore be 9 gold/turn, 3 Manpower and 4 Prestige /turn. Plus the other Vassal powers you get, which is basically an automatic combat ally and extra Captain actions.

There are a number of different Vassal oaths which can be sworn. They are selected when first swearing fealty, and may only be changed for the sum of 50 Prestige. These oaths determine the relationship between the liege and servant.

Feudal Vassal
The "standard", with the usual balance of military and economic requirements.
The Vassal gains an additional 1 Prestige a turn, and 1 Tax in their capital.

Military Vassal
Military vassals have greater military responsibility to their liege.
The Vassal gains 25 Knights, Rangers or Dismounted Knights (do not require unit slot) for the duration of their service.

Economic Vassal
Economic vassals tend to be of a more mercantile nature.
An Economic vassal earns 3 additional Tax in their capital.

If the vassal is an Earl then they receive 1 Prestige a turn, if the vassal is a Duke then they receive 2 Prestige a turn. These stack with other boni.

Liege Powers

Vote
The Liege may call on their subject's vote in any matter at the Council (and for all Votes at that session), but doing so means they may not call their vassal to arms during the coming Season.

Call to Arms
A liege may call Feudal and Military vassals to service, at which point the vassal captains and forces are under the control of the liege. Vassal captains will earn victories and 25% of any gold / prestige that they are eligible for, with the rest going to the liege. A Call to Arms can occur for any reason, including garrison duty, sieges, and raiding.

Vassal Rebellion

Vassals may rebel from their liege and earn their independence with the following means.

Military
If the Vassal is able successfully besiege their liege's captain, then they will win freedom. Attempting this will cost 30 Prestige, and they will of course ignore any Calls to Arms!

Diplomatic
A Vassal may make a plea to the Steppe Governor to call a vote on the revocation of their vassalage. Holding this vote will cost 30 Prestige (and can only be done with the vassal's assent).

Mystmountain Conquest

Mystmountain strongholds (hexes) can be besieged in the same way as a Player can, however all neighbouring Mystmountain hexes will answer a Call to Arms to defend that position. In cases where a coalition is involved, the liege-to be must be announced before the battle begins. Further more, this liege must pay 60 Prestige for this offensive to be sanctioned by the King, and if they lose then this fee too is lost.

On conquest of a Mystmountain stronghold, the player must assign a Captain action each turn, with a retinue of 2 units to subjugate the area, or else grant the captain the title of Viscount. Otherwise it is controlled by the liege in all other matters. Hexes so conquered are known as Frontiers , and can be besieged and stolen as per normal vassalising rules. If a Count has no spare captains, then they may not conquer a hex.

If a Mystmountain Stronghold falls, all neighbouring Mystmountains will increase in size by a factor of 1 grouping, and the chance for retribution raids is significantly increased!

Moving Capital

A Frontier may be occupied by a ruling Count, Marquis or Duke and named as the new capital for that liege. Doing so will downgrade their old holding to a March, with all the rules that entails. Any trait boni that can be moved, such as the Priestly manpower boost, or the Merchant Connections wealth will be transferred. Any upgraded Baronies may also be transferred at will by the Player.

New Quirks

Noble Quirks;
Courtier : +1 Prestige/turn
Count : (Granted Free) - 0 Prestige/turn default. +1 Prestige for each Vassal Point. 2 Vassal Points maximum. May vassalise Viscounts without penalty.
Marquis : 1 Prestige/turn. +1 Prestige for each Vassal Point. 4 Vassal Points maximum. Vassals of their own vassals count in these figures! May vassalise Counts without subjugation. Requires Count.
Duke : 2 Prestige/turn. 6 Vassal Points maximum. Vassals of their own vassals count in these figures! May vassalise Counts and Marquis without subjugation. Requires Marquis and either Bureaucrat, Courtier or Marshall.

Common Quirks;
Viscount : Captain may conquer and rule a Frontier (Frontiers require available Viscounts to take!)
Viceroy : Captain may subjugate with no troops.

***

Royally Appointed
The characters' actions during the war earned them the notice of someone powerful, and as thanks for their contribution, they were awarded this parcel of land.
* Titles cost 50% less.
* Ignores Subjugation requirements.
* 3 Vassal Points maximum for Counts, 5 for Marquis, and 7 for Dukes.

What is the requirement for becoming a Marquis? We all start as Counts, and Duke requires Marquis+traits, but surely we can't simply spend 30 (or 15) prestige to acquire the title without vassals or Royally Appointed?

so do I get the 20 Prestige back I spent for my Experienced Commander?

Yes, I think it was in the Map Room OOC thread that Mordred told us to refund our prestige and pick a new quirk.

@ Tysha : What would you suggest? Viscount vassals or... ?

@ Psychozoa : Yes.

I suggest requiring some kind of vassal, yes... excluding those Royally Appointed. (I almost wish I'd just asked for one of those initial 3-3 hexes and changed to Royally Appointed now!)

If we choose to move our capital to a conquered Northern hex, what is the process for also maintaining control of our original hex as a March? Marches aren't listed in the new update.

Frontiers = March. I changed the name as I'd like to reserve Marches for the future, as they became a big deal in original Aftermath.

You'd need a Viscount or Subjugation for any frontiers, including old capitals.

Bear with me a moment on the nobility rules, I've screwed up the prestige payouts now.

I had forgotten that I differentiated Frontiers and Vassals by their prestige value when I created the Noble Title quirks.

Ok, I am thinking that having a Player or NPC as a vassal should grant a blanket 2 Prestige/turn in addition to the titular prestige. This is to account for the lower manpower/wealth value.

This does mean that Dukes can make... silly amounts.
8 Prestige though titles, and if 3 of those were Players it'd jump to 14/turn. This means they would pay their title (admin quirk, plus Ducal quirk) off in just 5 turns which I feel is far too quick.

Thoughts?

I'm unsure. Being a duke should be our goal, and it should be rather... precarious at the top. I feel like we, as the players, should be trying to reach that peak and prevent others from doing the same. You know, competition, diplomatic maneuvering, military gambles, etc.

I don't think 5 turns is -too- quick, especially since the Duke will likely have to be paying off other PCs with prestige to keep their title anyway.

Also regarding Player mercenaries and loans;

Employer - Gains the full rewards.
Owner - Gains +5 Prestige and +1 Victory, or 1/3 of the total Prestige earned which ever is higher (on top of the total earned, so the Employer loses nothing in that situation). This only applies if there their Captain is present. If it's just troops they gain nothing.

Mordred wrote:Also regarding Player mercenaries and loans;

Employer - Gains the full rewards.
Owner - Gains +5 Prestige and +1 Victory, or 1/3 of the total Prestige earned which ever is higher (on top of the total earned, so the Employer loses nothing in that situation). This only applies if there their Captain is present. If it's just troops they gain nothing.

Does the besiege count as a victory?

Would I then get 10 prestige extra this turn? (and both Rabastan and Matarys 1 victory on their list)

Since there has been no battle, I don't think the siege should count as a victory... until it is won, in which case it is the battle following it that is the victory.

No the besiege doesn't count as a victory as nothing happened yet. As to the prestige, I'd like some feedback from others first. Should the Prestige only be for loans? (as Mercenaries are being paid anyway, and mercenary work isn't exactly glorious).

As a likely soon-to-be mercenary, I don't think there's any need for prestige to go to the owner. Appropriate victories for the captains involved, and whatever was negotiated as payment seems the best way. Prestige and gold are what make allies and mercenaries distinct.

Now that we're on the topic of player mercenaries... I'd like to inquire about the possibility of preventing my own men to fight each other.

I should be able to call them back in case of emergencies, however long the contract would have continued. But what should be the penalty?

This is something I had meant to tackle too. Thoughts?

The mercenaries are ultimately under the control of the owner, so the owner should be able to order them to stand down. The penalties are more tricky. If the contract was for a specific time, breaking it early should make the gold exchanged rightfully belong to the employer rather than the owner... thus theft if it is not returned. A casus belli seems appropriate regardless of a time-limited contract or just with upkeep.

A prestige penalty should be kept small though, as mercenaries aren't necessarily known to be reliable anyway, at most -5. The real penalty will be what we the PCs think of the broken contract.

Tysha wrote:A prestige penalty should be kept small though, as mercenaries aren't necessarily known to be reliable anyway, at most -5.  The real penalty will be what we the PCs think of the broken contract.

I was thinking something along the same line. Just as long as someone isn't killing my troops, with my own troops. (perhaps that should justify it a little?)

That depends on the eyes through which the pulled mercenaries are viewed!

Tysha wrote:A quick proposal:  Boost Fierce Friends to 20 Order Knights (combat value is 160 base, for a comparison a unit of 100 bowmen/spearmen is 200) and Paranoid to 35 (base value of 175).  That makes them almost equal in combat effectiveness, so that it becomes a matter of which flavor is preferred rather than, well... 5 Order Knights adds less than half the value of a unit of peasants.

Proposal is

Fierce Friends goes from 5 Order Knights to 20.

Paranoid goes from 25 Adventurers to 35.

I like this proposal, Tysha. I second it.

 

Sorry that had slipped past me. Other thoughts? I am not averse to it (though I suspect 20 Order knight will be too much, their military value is likely to be higher than their combat value would suggest).

Would 15 be a better amount then? They are likely to tip the balance more than a full unit of levy would despite the lower combat value, but I still think 5 is too low. The number of Adventurers from Paranoid reaches that critical mass of being useful, it's just that raising the number of Order Knights would make Paranoid an obviously inferior choice if their number is not also raised.

Also... a 2 wealth minimum is about three months over-due now.